JSC interviews: Zondo faces questions on state capture commission work

Members of the Judicial Services Commission (JSC) quizzed Acting Chief Justice Raymond Zondo on the state capture commission he chairs, delving into the handling of former spy boss Arthur Fraser’s matter.

Fraser, who was correctional services director-general until last year, is one of the eight individuals who lodged objections to the JSC against Zondo being appointed chief justice.

Commissioner Narend Singh asked Zondo for clarity on the objection and complaints levelled against him by Fraser. The former State Security Agency director-general was implicated in looting and pillaging of public funds at the state security agency.

Zondo told commissioners that he had, since the start of the commission in 2018, asked former and present government leaders, including director-generals, to come forward with information, and that Fraser didn’t do so until March 2020.

Fraser claimed he was not afforded an opportunity to give evidence after Zondo dismissed his application to cross-examine witnesses.

“He came forward only after certain SSA members gave evidence and said he would give his evidence, but needed documents from the SSA. According to him, those documents would show the investigation of judges on corruption, and past and present presidents. I said okay, go ahead and approach the SSA,” Zondo said.

The SSA then came forward and asked Fraser to specify which documents he wanted so they can be furnished to him. The commission allowed Fraser to make arrangements with the SSA after he agreed to indicate which documents he wanted.

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It seemed Fraser didn’t want to adhere by the rules like everyone else, Zondo added.

“Evidence is that he never went to SSA to obtain those documents, despite the fact that they invited him, never explained why he didn’t follow up or comply.

“I raised the issue on why he didn’t get those documents… I thought he would explain it, but he didn’t. In fact it seemed he didn’t want to do things according to rules of the commission. He had lawyers, but he didn’t come back.”

Commissioner Julius Malema accused Zondo of avoiding properly answering the question on Fraser.

“Why didn’t the commission compel him to come answer as a former accounting officer? He is implicated in billions of rands of alleged looted public funds. [Deputy Minister of State Security Zizi Kodwa] gets called for just one million rand… and Kodwa never led any lead strategic department in the state, he worked for the ANC… but here was Fraser implicated and not called. Why?”

Zondo repeated the answer he gave to Singh, adding that Fraser was given an opportunity to get his documents and give evidence, but didn’t do that.

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As Malema lined up further questions, JSC chairperson Deputy Judge President Xola Petse, interjected, asking Malema to moderate his tone of voice. An irritated Malema said that was how he spoke.

“What tone? How do I change how I speak? I speak like this. I’m not shouting, this is how I speak… he [Petse] chairs this commission and he knows I speak like this.”

Petse relented and moved on.

On accusations that he favoured President Cyril Ramaphosa by those who lodged objections against him, Zondo said the accusers didn’t provide evidence.

“I don’t think they placed any facts forward, it is just a perception. I am not pro anyone or anti anyone. I made a decision as chairperson that he has to appear before the commission, because he was part of the exec during the time of state capture. I met with him and formally requested him, and he agreed to come and he came.”

Commissioner Engela Schlemmer remarked to Zondo that there could be perceptions out there that he was delaying his final state capture report so that he wouldn’t make an unfavourable finding against Ramaphosa before he appoints a chief justice.

“Well then, those people don’t know me,” he said.

Zondo detailed how agreeing to head the state capture commission meant that he could earn himself new enemies along the way. The job was a national duty and as second in command in the judiciary, he had to take responsibility and agree to do the work.

“When president [Jacob] Zuma asked the former chief justice [Mogoeng] Mogoeng to recommend a judge to head the commission, he came with names and together we sat down in the same room, calling those judges on the list asking them to take the job. I had a retired judge in mind, but he wasn’t available.

“Mogoeng then asked me to do it, and I didn’t hesitate… I said ‘CJ, I will do it.’ There was no way I would run from that responsibility. Some of the judges we called said they were not available, and some were not comfortable taking the job… I made enemies for myself, but I knew that when I took the job.”

Asked whether there was any complaint pending against him at the judicial council, the chief justice nominee said there were complaints previously but they were resolved. The most recent was laid by former Prasa CEO Lucky Montana and has since been dismissed, with Montana never taking it further, said Zondo.

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